Tickrate (?)

[thenitromefan]

I'd like to fill in the answers for some of the excellent questions Tapping has provided. Many of these are subjective, so feel free to argue against anything I say.

"...some tied WR's happen [in other games]. Are they any less impressive? We have been fortunate to have a game like Portal 2 at 60 fps with a reliable challenge mode timer. How many chambers are affected by this issue? Laser Crusher is an example, but other than that, are there others? Are you genuinely going to be upset because you can't get a X.x2 or X.x7? "
Just about any chamber that has been optimized to a few hundredths of a second would be prime examples, e.g. Dual Lasers, Fizzler Intro, Infinifling, Fling Block, Cooperative Polarity, etc. Many people here agree that the more optimized in-game timing is, the better, on the condition that it changes nothing else in the game. But it does, which brings me to my next point:

"This is like the phys_timescale argument all over again: you can play faster if you change the physics of the game. But, in my opinion, that ruins the "awe" and fun of speedrunning. It also puts another wall in front of PC versus console speedrunning."
Not to say that I don't appreciate the "awe" that speedrunning gives, but that's not actually the main point of speedrunning; the point of speedrunning is, put simply, to run through the game as quickly as possible. The only reason I bring this up is because we've already allowed in the past certain changes that benefit players in speedrunning the game - sv_player_funnel_into_portals (altering portal funnel in certain maps), developer 1 (removing delay), mat_monitorgamma_tv_enabled (for added brightness in Turret Factory), etc. I feel that changing tickrate (and thus giving minimal advantages at best) isn't as significant as changing portal funnel (which creates new routes), and if we were to allow the latter, we definitely should the former.
Speedrunning in PC vs console was never comparable to begin with; it's not as though allowing this change suddenly makes it impossible for console speedrunners to compete with those on PC.

""CM will then become experimentation with new routes and what is an optimal tick rate." This is true, and is the same argument we had with phys_timescale. We didn't use phys_timescale because it changed the physics of the game. Besides, is that how we want to spend our time routing? Finding a magic number that works best?"
Again, changes in the physics of the game were allowed before - the only reason phys_timescale wasn't accepted was because its effects were too extreme compared to the others. Also, I'm pretty sure a change as small as changing the tickrate isn't going to create many new routes; a few minor changes in airstrafing and elevators are all we have found so far. It's a bit of a far-fetched hypothetical, imo.
New routes and improvements are constantly being found, even to this day. Many of them are petty and insignificant, yet we all strive to use them to our advantage, simply because that's the nature of speedrunning. Be it discovering a route that skips half a map or "Finding a magic number that works best", an improvement is an improvement. I just see no reason why we shouldn't use them.

"We could all use commands that even the playing field, but at what point do we draw a line?"
This is the crux of the matter, and admittedly I don't have a satisfying answer. So far things have been solved via general consensus, the speedrunning community as a whole deciding whether the command in question is wrong or not. We've rejected phys_timescale, yet we haven't for sv_player_funnel_into_portals or any of the other commands. The only reason for this is because, as stated earlier, phys_timescale was too game-breaking to enjoy for much of the community. Abusing tickrate, on the other hand, is on a different scale. It's just... too unimportant, compared to other commands.

"I agree, 0.01 does make a difference, but is it important compared to other issues, like changing the physics of the game?"
Changes in the physics of the game are indeed important for speedrunning. It's just that it's almost non-existent, especially in challenge mode. I don't feel that it should be much of an issue, especially compared to portal funnel toggling, which drastically changes the physics of the game.

"Was the decision made with phys_timescale a reasonable one?"
I'm gonna be the unpopular one here and say that, while it seemed reasonable at the time, in retrospect, the decision was somewhat hastily made. I don't mean to say that phys_timescale should have been allowed, but the arguments behind disallowing it were iffy at best. Many people in this community only argued against it for the sake of the speedrunning community, and not the command itself. I'm sorry, that's just how I feel.

"In my opinion, it was something that shouldn't have been there, and I'm glad it's gone from CM now. If you feel that way too, then you will need to argue why changing the tickrate should be treated differently."
I agree. Should phys_timescale have been in challenge mode? Many agree that it shouldn't have. Sure, tickrate is in a different league from phys_timescale, but the same reasonings that go against phys_timescale also go against tickrate. Just because they're different doesn't mean they're mutually exclusive.

"The only reason phys_timescale had an argument was because it was hard to enforce. Tickrate is easy to enforce."
Hard, but possible. As long as it is possible (whether easy or hard), I don't see a reason for not allowing. (Unrelated to the discussion above.)

Lastly, I'd like to paraphrase what Imanex said about this: Allowing tickrate change does not necessarily mean runners with less skill get better. Skill is still required for world records.

[klooger]

Ok I just want to clarify something for the people saying that my point about it not being fair to old times isn't right. This isn't like someone discovering a new route, this is like finding a command to turn on timescale without cheats and then saying that if we all just find the best value and stick to that we will all be on an even playing field, of course no one would stand for this (except maybe betsruner), this is just a slightly less extreme version of that. Sure it makes the timer more accurate, but that's really the only solid plus for this that i can see, what is the point in timing more accurately when you are changing the way the game works.

[szeimartin]

I don't know if my opinion matters in this but I don't think it should be allowed.

Also I think you should add a Poll in the main post.

[tapping]

thenitromefan discusses some good points.  I guess I just wanted to point out some more things:

Each command found needed to be taken on a case-by-case basis, because of the complexity of the rules/history for CM:

-  developer 1 was a way to start a level without an elevator immediately (like propulsion catch) without the randomness/hassle of going back to the main menu and starting the chamber all over again every time.  AKA the desired effect of developer 1 was being used before dev1 was used, but it was very annoying to do.  Developer 1 was allowed because of this, and because it did not affect other parts of the game. Also, it is allowed in CM not SS.
-  mat_monitorgamma_tv_enabled  is a "controversial" one imo, but really it only serves a purpose in dark maps.  Imo, this was allowed to even an unlevel playing field for people with brighter monitors than others.  It has no adverse effects, and did not enhance or inhibit former times/routes in any way.  Again, it's allowed in CM not SS
-  funneling into portals is the biggest change we allow to the physics engine.  The main reason this was allowed was because in Portal 1 this was an actual option (didn't need commands).  Portal 2  didn't have this option.  However, we could use a command to make it an option. Because funneling options were in the previous game, we allowed it in Portal 2 and it made the game/routes deeper imo.  I also want to point out that this command is binary:  either "on" or "off", it's not adjustable.

"Skill is still required for world records."
I completely agree with that statement.  But, skill was still required if you allowed phys_timescale.  In fact, (as an extreme example) skill is still required if you allowed something like host_timescale.  It just isn't the right way to think about allowing a command.

Also, the reason I keep saying "tickrate is easy to enforce"
Suppose tickrate was impossible to enforce/detect.  Then, if we didn't allow it, the top times on the leaderboards would be gotten by the (undetected) cheaters.  Thus, we might be forced to allow tickrate.
Since tickrate is easy to enforce, it leaves us with the choice of whether or not to ban it.  The easier it is to enforce, the better it is for preventing people from cheating (if we choose to ban it).  Since it's so easy to enforce, it's very viable to be banned.  That's all I'm really saying.

Finally I will clarify a point that Klooger made about being fair to old times (see his post):
"old times" implies "before using tickrate".  When we use tickrate, we do change the physics of the game.
The most extreme point of view is this:   the difference between finding a new route and finding a new command/launch option, is that we are changing the game. period. it's not the same game as it was before.  It's not the same as finding a clever new way to beat a level, in my opinion.
Of course, that's a little extreme, but I don't think it's that far off.  Old times will be slower, not necessarily because they are less skillful, but because we've changed the game.

[tapping]

PLEASE NOTE: THERE IS A POLL OPEN NOW ON THIS THREAD.

We should see where people stand on the issue.
please do not try to abuse the polling option (aka, no cheating, everyone gets one vote).
Thanks szeimartin for the suggestion.

[thenitromefan]

Thanks for the poll, Tapping.

First off, I want to say that I'm just providing counterarguments/clarification for the sake of discussion. Sorry for spamming quotation marks, I can't think of a better/easier way to respond to multiple points. So here goes:

"[mat_monitorgamma_tv_enabled] was allowed to even an unlevel playing field for people with brighter monitors than others."
Not really related to the current discussion here, but to be honest, there wasn't much discussion of this. Bananasaurus Rex first started using it in challenge mode, then so did everyone else. It was technically never agreed upon to be okay to use. It was just never brought up for banning.

"[F]unneling into portals is the biggest change we allow to the physics engine. The main reason this was allowed was because in Portal 1 this was an actual option (didn't need commands). Portal 2 didn't have this option. However, we could use a command to make it an option. Because funneling options were in the previous game, we allowed it in Portal 2 and it made the game/routes deeper imo."
"The most extreme point of view is this: the difference between finding a new route and finding a new command/launch option, is that we are changing the game. period. it's not the same game as it was before. It's not the same as finding a clever new way to beat a level, in my opinion."
This is where things get problematic for me. I know very well that disabling portal funneling creates faster routes, many of which are deemed impressive. However, it must be noted that this is only possible by purposely manipulating the physics of the game. The sole difference between this and tickrate changing is that portal funnel toggle creates notable new routes; tickrate change doesn't. Both rely on the change in the physics of the game, and that's pretty much the only factual change about this. As klooger has said, "what is the point in timing more accurately when you are changing the way the game works." The same could be said for new routes - what's the point in creating them when you are changing the way the game works? The point is that both are commands in Portal that modify the way the game works. Allowing one and not the other for purely aesthetic reasons just doesn't seem right to me.

""Skill is still required for world records." I completely agree with that statement. But, skill was still required if you allowed phys_timescale. In fact, (as an extreme example) skill is still required if you allowed something like host_timescale. It just isn't the right way to think about allowing a command."
I concur. When I said that, I wasn't trying to say that amount of necessary skill should be a standard for determining the legitimacy of a command. Rather, I was trying to counter the claim that "less skill is required to do the same things." I interpreted that as 'needing less skill for world records.' If that wasn't the point, I apologize for the misunderstanding.

"Since tickrate is easy to enforce, it leaves us with the choice of whether or not to ban it. The easier it is to enforce, the better it is for preventing people from cheating (if we choose to ban it). Since it's so easy to enforce, it's very viable to be banned. That's all I'm really saying."
That's very true. If we all agreed to ban tickrate change, it would make things much easier. The issue is that tickrate change has potential to be useful in more ways than we currently know, and I'd rather not be willing to miss out on possible ways to make speedruns faster. Just putting that out there.

"Old times will be slower, not necessarily because they are less skillful, but because we've changed the game."
That's also true. However, as has already been stated, skill has very little to do with what we're dealing with right now, and the conditions for what is or is not okay for change in this game is so arbitrary that it's difficult to make a general statement regarding commands that change the game. Part of me wants to agree that old times should not be obsoleted because of silly modifications to the game, but the history of the Portal 2 speedrunning community has shown that sometimes it's fine. That's all I really want to say about that.

[jesuscatface]

No matter how you argue it, it's painfully obvious that portal 2 was simply not designed to run at different tickrates. While you can say some of the commands we already allow arn't intended for use in the game, I personally don't agree with some of the stuff we allow. I guess it's also for that reason I could never dedicate myself to CM. I know this won't matter to a lot of you seeing how small the portal 2 community is, but I would like to point out that the more commands we throw into the game to make it faster, the less accessible it is for new players.

[jesuscatface]

Also if a command like this was allowed, what's stopping us from modifying air acceleration. This kind of stuff changes the game on a fundamental level.

[KranK]

I don't play CM anymore but I'm going to state my opinion regardless. Modifying the tickrate messes with many of the default entities used in hammer which affects ALL game "modes" (CM, SS, Custom). There is no good reason to modify it and there are many reasons why we shouldn't modify it. If people want better timing in CM they should all know how to do this manually by now. If  a .01 difference is so important to you then time it manually. Does it really matter if your time is on the leaderboards if you know you've achieved it?

I don't understand why portal funneling is even being talked about here as it's not even close to the same thing as changing tickrate. Portal funneling doesn't have an effect on any of the entities in hammer.

At first I didn't see an issue with tickrate changes until I tested it myself and in my opinion changing it should not be allowed.

The only acceptable reason for tickrate changes would be for a TAS. Which is not currently a thing in P2 as far as I know.

Just my opinion...changing tickrate should not be allowed.  

[jesuscatface]

Judging by our votes so far, it seems like we may disallow tickrate changes. tho, it may be a good idea to try and get more runners on this forum so we can get more accurate view from the community

[PerOculols]

So when I found out Zypeh used the tickrate launch option, my first reaction was wow, he just took my wakeup wr that I grinded quite a while to get, so that seems really cheap of him to do. I found all this out from Pocky, and tbh if I didn't find out about it, I don't know how long it would have taken to get out, due to lack of people caring or just not enough communication in the community. I told Nuclear he should remove times that used it, even though there would be no solid way to prove anyone used it in challenge mode without a demo.

Even though I'm voicing my opinion by saying tickrate altered times should be removed, I used tickrate to quit challenge mode to focus on SS. I did this because I was in a Skype call with nuclear for a bit, he seemed to want to remove times that used it, but then he left and after a day or so I realized he wasn't going to do anything about it, so I sorta quit challenge mode.

My opinion is that we should have an even playing field since when I got here I did single segment for the sole purpose of competition, not to just go shamelessly fast.

[PerOculols]

And also this wouldn't be a problem if steam gave a small amount of a shit about their leaderboards.

[thenitromefan]

It seems that the consensus is to disallow tickrate manipulation. It's nice that people are actually having a civilized discussion and giving tenable reasons.

[retep]

I don't really understand why we shouldn't allow it. I had a friend over watching me play the other day and he jokingly said "what the heck Retep, I thought you were good at this game" after he saw me get a 40s+ time on trust fling and noticed my top friend had 30s. I explained about the alt-tab glitch and that the community had decided times obtained using this glitch would be considered illegitimate. He then looked at me kind of confused and asked why?, to which I didn't have a good reply.

I am unaware of any other game that nitpicks which glitches can and cannot be used. At worst, a separate category is made for certain major glitches, but for individual levels, typically, anything goes and the goal is to use everything (besides hacking) to your advantage to get the best time possible. I mean people are complaining about messing with the game's physics but look at some of the Pokemon games or super mario world, they are literally (to my very limited understanding) rewriting the memory to trick the game into thinking its been completed.

How is changing the tickrate different from allowing "developer 1"? They both slightly speed up runs without actually creating new routes. Why are we allowed to mess with physics by flying over levels using the crouch fly glitch, but can't use tickrate? It just seems so random and arbitrary.

[Also, slightly off topic, but why isn't phys_timescale allowed? I wasn't part of the community when this was a thing, so I never really saw or heard anything about it.]

[jesuscatface]

Jan 25, 2015 15:38:50 GMT retep said:

I don't really understand why we shouldn't allow it. I had a friend over watching me play the other day and he jokingly said "what the heck Retep, I thought you were good at this game" after he saw me get a 40s+ time on trust fling and noticed my top friend had 30s. I explained about the alt-tab glitch and that the community had decided times obtained using this glitch would be considered illegitimate. He then looked at me kind of confused and asked why?, to which I didn't have a good reply.

I am unaware of any other game that nitpicks which glitches can and cannot be used. At worst, a separate category is made for certain major glitches, but for individual levels, typically, anything goes and the goal is to use everything (besides hacking) to your advantage to get the best time possible. I mean people are complaining about messing with the game's physics but look at some of the Pokemon games or super mario world, they are literally (to my very limited understanding) rewriting the memory to trick the game into thinking its been completed.

How is changing the tickrate different from allowing "developer 1"? They both slightly speed up runs without actually creating new routes. Why are we allowed to mess with physics by flying over levels using the crouch fly glitch, but can't use tickrate? It just seems so random and arbitrary.

[Also, slightly off topic, but why isn't phys_timescale allowed? I wasn't part of the community when this was a thing, so I never really saw or heard anything about it.]

The alt tab thingy messes with the timer in a way that's not really nice to run, and let me tell you, there's a reason any game with a timer glitch typically disallows it.

Consider this, Pokemon runs may have some insane glitches, but this is Portal 2. We have the beast that is the console to deal with and we do our best to deal with questionable commands when they come up. In my view, the closest comparison tickrate can have to Pokemon would be using an emulator to speed up the game.

Like it has been stated previously, developer 1 emulates a glitch that already exists in the game, the command just makes CM easier to run without having to go into the menus everytime to reset. Not to mention developer 1 is not allowed in SS, for obvious reasons. Crouch fly is a regular glitch in the game, tickrate is not. I can assure you, things are not as arbitrary as they seem.