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Post by tapping on Jan 17, 2015 8:23:21 GMT
We should be discussing this... especially publicly. It's important everyone is informed. also, DO NOT USE TICKRATE IN CM UNTIL THE ISSUE IS RESOLVED.
This tickrate stuff... I don't know much about it, but should we be using it? I feel like it's silly to change the game's natural 60fps, but someone needs to inform me and others about this before deciding to use it.
CONS (to using it) - If we choose not to use it, it should be easy to detect cheaters from demos. - SS runs are not going to be able to use this tickrate regardless - completing the game may even be impossible without 60 tickrate, as well as timing with demos will need to be completely redone. (and I don't see the SS community accepting it anyway). - Ambiguous timing: tickrates above 100 have potential for "tied" runs with different # of ticks (for instance, 1122 and 1123 ticks are both shown as 8.77). -Znernicus - Elevator timing is different and can act very weirdly (affects non-CM maps and underground maps). - May affect unforseen parts of game (Should keep testing it for now, but use sv_cheats or something so that your times are not recorded). - Different tickrates affect the game differently; (Maybe we should make a community standard tickrate? But then what was the point of using it, why not 60? If we allow it, people will need to experiment with different tickrates for different maps to find the optimal one). - It doesn't enhance the speedrunning skill in any way, as far as I know. Just the timing of the chambers.
so what arguments are there for using it?
PROS (to using it) - It's faster. - More accurate timing. Times ending in x.x2 and x.x7 will now exist. (Although, see "ambiguous timing" under CONS) - The half-life community uses something similar. (so I've been told?) I really don't know much about it. But also, just because they use it, doesn't mean we have to. - Won't need to check through demos
I argue we should not use tickrate... thoughts?
The reasons I bring this up:
I want to reiterate the biggest points imo: It is easy to enforce any rule we implement with tickrate. Also, SS actually cannot use it (cannot beat the game).
In fact, if it weren't easy to enforce, my opinion would completely change for CM. The fact that we can enforce a tickrate rule makes it possible to detect people who are playing against the rules (if we choose to set-up rules for this).
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Post by klooger on Jan 17, 2015 9:25:50 GMT
Pros -Gotta go fast -Game = less dead -times ending in x.x2 and x.x7 will now exist
Cons -Makes every time using 60 tick obsolete, unfair to old runners that don't play anymore, etc -Different tickrates affect the game differently, and it is easy for people to abuse this -New players will automatically be at a disadvantage if they aren't told about higher tickrates, which will be quite likely -Even if it is easy to detect the exact tickrate through demos this prettymuch only applies to world records, and even then isn't great, not every world record has a demo for proof, and people getting times in the rank 5-10 range while still important almost certainly will not be uploading demos of those runs, so it is quite likely that they could use a different tickrate and get away with it. -I haven't tested this but I was told that if you try and complete an ss run with 128 tick the game will bug at the end level and you wont be able to complete the run,so to me this means that if you cant use it in ss, you shouldn't use it in challenge either.
I vote tickrate not allowed
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Post by jesuscatface on Jan 17, 2015 9:59:55 GMT
im not a fan of this modified tickrate business. tickrate should be constant for everyone to have a level playing field. not to mention the weird things the higher tickrate does to portal 2.
Should not be allowed
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Post by yoshipro on Jan 17, 2015 10:05:41 GMT
shouldn't be allowed because it's dumb
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Post by imanex on Jan 17, 2015 10:13:50 GMT
Alright so here are all my thoughts on changing Tick Rates First of all I'm going to rewrite parts of the original post to clarify how we should approach this.
Changing The Tick Rate
Pros *"More Accurate Timing" (0.02 and 0.07). Allows runners to be more competitive which each other (Once times reach the point where its optimized, a more accurate timer is better). *"Improves airstrafing and hops" (somewhat). Allows runners to further improve and demonstrate their skills. (Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to affect it)
Cons *"Elevator speeds are affected". This effects end elevators for unoffical chambers and for underground levels *Other Unknown elements of the game may be changed. ~~~~~~~~~~~
So that is solely the Pros and Cons of USING a different tick rate that differs from 60; not how this affects the community or other things. The following in this post are issues surrounding this;
~~~~~~~~~~~ First of all - Comparing this to Phys_timescale *Phys_timescale allowed you to manipulate a value at your own accord at any time during the game *However, if it was a tickrate change, the servers are constantly running at the same value for the entire duration of a run (In Half Life the FPS is changed which allows for better hops and other various tricks and this is accepted.)
This is going to be primarily abused for IL's, but Single Segment runners should not be concerned since they can easily reinforce the tick rates used in runs or separate 128 into a different category. Since values can't be changed during a run there's no complex routes that involve switching (which Phys_timescale had elements with, remember phys_timescale 0)
Next, Detection of this. That shouldn't be labeled as a pro or con. Regardless of whether its going to be used by the community its an issue, hence why all these points are here. How do we reinforce these rules? Demos? Sure that can be applied to a world record holder but how is this going to apply to a general improvements? Must every runner submit a demo to even have their time recorded? This is setting limitations for runners. We want to be encouraging participation. (Stop being toxic =.=)
The arguments about having to redo maps is weak. This isn't the first instance the game has been improved and runners had to change their ways, plus this is a new opportunity for runners to improve their times and get involved in the game. It shouldn't be a discouragement. It not being fair to older runners may be true in some aspects but the game is constantly changing with routes and ticks and so naturally they are going to be left behind as year progress. This happens in any game.
Concerning newer players just getting involved in the game, stating they will be at a disadvantage. They won't be forever. Whenever starting a new game you DO NOT know everything. A platform such as this forum needs to make players aware of these things (every P2 runner should use this more). Banning this tick rate based on how accessibility to knowledge is silly. What about recording _2 demos? Are these newer runners just meant to put up with a 0.4penalty they don't know about? Of course not, they will learn through being told so it's not as if its being hidden.
The only difficulty is, if its allowed - CM will then become experimentation with new routes and what is an optimal tick rate. Will "what is the best tick rate" going to be kept from other runners and be a secret. This is the same as hiding a route to get an advantage. Its annoying but is used for competition. A platform like this allows us to make a list of optimal tick rates and explore this. ~~~~~~
If everyone is using the same tickrate, everyone is on an even playing field. This is only an issue current since half the players are apposed it and half are using it which distinguishes a disadvantage. No matter the decision everyone is on the same playing field. The only difference is that changing the Tick Rate allows for more potential in speedrunning. Its not a instant win. You still need to have skill to bunny hop.
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Post by klooger on Jan 17, 2015 10:21:55 GMT
* "Improves airstrafing and hops" (somewhat). Allows runners to further improve and demonstrate their skills. (Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to affect it) It actually just gives more speed for the same amount of strafing, so it actually requires less skill to do the same things
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Post by zypeh on Jan 17, 2015 14:07:50 GMT
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Post by Znernicus on Jan 17, 2015 16:24:40 GMT
Obviously my opinion is to ban tickrate modification completely. Why?
-Running the game on a different tickrate is similar to overclocking a system. You change the pace at which the engine processes things, to me this seems like modifying the game beyond a reasonable extent for speedruns. In this respect it is very similar to phys_timescale. If you found unprotected commands to increase air acceleration or movement speed I would put them in the same boat.
-The "more accurate" argument is complete nonsense. Just because you can have .02 and .07 doesn't mean the 60 tickrate system is flawed, that's just a result of rounding to the nearest hundredth when in reality your time for a chamber is essentially a number of 1/60th second ticks. If anything, changing to 128 tick would result in ambiguous challenge times. For example, consider two 128 tickrate runs that are 1122 and 1123 ticks. Both would be shown as 8.77 and tied even though one of them is actually faster. With the 60 tickrate rounding, even a 1 tick improvement will always make your time reflect the improvement. Perhaps it would be better to record times in terms of number of ticks so people don't get bothered by numbers being skipped? Still not sure why this bothers people...
The only reason I could see to allow tickrate modding is because otherwise a large number of times would have to be wiped from the leaderboards if we were to continue using steam-integrated tables. However a better solution would be a community controlled leaderboard that did not require your time to be the same one saved on your steam account, so players like Zypeh and Peroculos could still have their legitimate 60 tick times listed. I don't think it would be fair to outright ban them from having a top time just because they used tickrate modification before it became banned.
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Post by Swagatron on Jan 17, 2015 16:46:45 GMT
Shouldn't be allowed, for the reasons everyone has listed below. Can we ban betsruner from portal 2 yet?
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Post by Nuclear on Jan 17, 2015 17:20:03 GMT
Ban bets forever?
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Post by klooger on Jan 17, 2015 17:20:34 GMT
Shouldn't be allowed, for the reasons everyone has listed below. Can we ban betsruner from portal 2 yet? Again*
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Post by Jetwash_787 on Jan 17, 2015 18:44:30 GMT
One more con for the increased tickrate (hardly a con, just another thing it changes) is that custom map timers get rekt by it. Custom map timers are slower by about 10% for unknown reasons, which leads me to believe that this may affect more than we know, because its an unusual difference given that the tickrate is doubled, but I could be completely wrong, all I know is that custom map timers are affected by a seemingly insignificant amount. Although its probably only related to how the timer works, I think the illuminati is involved.
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Post by betsruner on Jan 17, 2015 19:24:04 GMT
If anything, changing to 128 tick would result in ambiguous challenge times. For example, consider two 128 tickrate runs that are 1122 and 1123 ticks. Both would be shown as 8.77 and tied even though one of them is actually faster. With the 60 tickrate rounding. This doesn't work with 60 tick either no tick is worth .01 seconds so this point is really invalid cause it's just as inaccurate on 60 tick. Besides that's not even what I mean when I say more accurate what I mean is you can get every .01 and not 7/9 of them. I didn't say 128 tick was perfect timing but it's as close as we're getting so why would we not use the best timing method possible for challenge mode I know SS runners like yourself don't understand how important a .01 is but that can make the difference between a 6 player tie and a .01 improvement. Evidence for this happening can be found on a former coop WR laser crusher when there was a tie of 3 teams, or 6 people all stuck at 10.03, I guarantee that one of there runs deserved a 10.02 but guess what WR got stuck on this for a very lengthy amount of time just because we couldn't time accurately enough.
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hadot
New Member
Posts: 2
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Post by hadot on Jan 18, 2015 2:17:35 GMT
speedrun speed
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Post by tapping on Jan 18, 2015 18:20:05 GMT
Let's address a few things:
While I do think there are legit points from both sides of the argument with "more accurate timing" (or) "ambiguous timing".. all of these timing points are not as important as they are being made out to be. Many speedgame IL's deal with 30 fps, or even have full second timers. In these games, some tied WR's happen. Are they any less impressive? We have been fortunate to have a game like Portal 2 at 60 fps with a reliable challenge mode timer. How many chambers are affected by this issue? Laser Crusher is an example, but other than that, are there others? Are you genuinely going to be upset because you can't get a X.x2 or X.x7? These are questions that I won't answer for you, but you should think about.
If all tickrate did was make the timer more accurate, I think we'd generally be okay with it. But when we change tickrate, we change the physics of the game. Air-strafing is easier, elevators act differently, and I'm sure there's things that we haven't even seen from it yet. This is like the phys_timescale argument all over again: of course you can play faster if you change the physics of the game. But, in my opinion, that ruins the "awe" and fun of speedrunning. It also puts another wall in front of PC versus console speedrunning. Anyway, kind of opinionated at the end there, but I just don't see the timer "issues" as major issues in comparison to these ones.
I know phys_timescale is a different beast, but to me it seems like a similar argument is being repeated:
"CM will then become experimentation with new routes and what is an optimal tick rate." This is true, and is the same argument we had with phys_timescale. We didn't use phys_timescale because it changed the physics of the game. Besides, is that how we want to spend our time routing? Finding a magic number that works best?
"If everyone is using the same tickrate, everyone is on an even playing field." This is true, and also the same argument with phys_timescale. Just because we would all be on the same playing field, doesn't make it the right choice. We could all use commands that even the playing field, but at what point do we draw a line?
Finally, "I know SS runners like yourself don't understand how important a .01 is..." SS runners do CM too, and I think we all understand the significance of 0.01... be careful about insulting anyone. I agree, 0.01 does make a difference, but is it important compared to other issues, like changing the physics of the game?
My final question to you guys is: Was the decision made with phys_timescale a reasonable one? Was anyone genuinely upset that phys_timescale was banned? In my opinion, it was something that shouldn't have been there, and I'm glad it's gone from CM now. If you feel that way too, then you will need to argue why changing the tickrate should be treated differently.
The only reason phys_timescale had an argument was because it was hard to enforce. Tickrate is easy to enforce.
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